Her Next Chapters
This podcast is for moms with an empty nest on the horizon who are reclaiming & redefining their identity outside of motherhood, which might include a job search. On this show we’ll have raw conversations about our ever-changing roles as moms, hear from women who restarted their careers, and share tactical tips for a successful job search after a career break.
Her Next Chapters
66. Navigating Midlife Career Transitions with Confidence, featuring Guest Kathryn Sandford
Ready to embrace career transitions with confidence and clarity? Discover how Kathryn Sandford, a career brand leadership coach from New Zealand, transformed her career path from teaching to empowering midlife women to redefine their professional identities. Hear Kathryn's compelling story of a pivotal moment in a school staff room that set her on a new course to help women over 40 build influential personal brands. Her insights, backed by over two decades of recruitment experience, offer a treasure trove of strategies for anyone yearning to reclaim their career with a fresh perspective.
This episode promises a wealth of knowledge on shifting from job-seeking to personal brand-building, especially for those stepping back into the workforce. Kathyrn and I unpack the mindset shift needed to approach job interviews with confidence and self-assurance, emphasizing mutual fit over desperation. Listen as we highlight the importance of self-awareness and collaboration in creating compelling resumes and LinkedIn profiles, empowering individuals to tell their stories with authenticity and long-term vision.
From gamifying the job search process to leveraging networking for increased impact, Kathryn shares actionable advice to transform invisibility into influence. We also touch on the importance of upskilling and volunteering for those with career gaps, and how managing comparison bias can lead to personal growth. Tune in for a session that’s both enlightening and empowering, loaded with practical advice to navigate your career transitions gracefully.
The book I referenced is:
The Gap and The Gain: The High Achievers' Guide to Happiness, Confidence, and Success
by Dan Sullivan
Grab a Free Resume Template for Career Returners
Want to chat about your career goals? Schedule a free call HERE.
Send me an email ---> christina@hernextchapters.com
Connect with me on LinkedIn ---> www.linkedin.com/in/kohlchristina
Hi and welcome to Her Next Chapter's podcast. I'm your host, Christina Kohl. I'm a mom of three and soon to be an empty nester. I'm also a certified HR pro who restarted my career after being a stay-at-home mom for over a decade. I created this podcast to connect with moms who have an empty nest on the horizon and are wanting to redefine their identity outside of motherhood, which might include a job search. On this show we'll have raw conversations about our ever-changing roles as moms. We'll hear from women who restarted their careers and share tips for a job search after a career break. So if that's you, you're in the right place. Friend, let's get started.
Christina Kohl:Well, welcome everyone to this week's episode of our Next Chapters podcast. We have a special guest joining us today, all the way from New Zealand, and it's so fun because while I'm recording at what 3.05 in the afternoon on Monday for our guest Kathryn Sandford, it is like 11.05 in the morning on Tuesday. So kind guest, Kathryn Sandford. It is like 11.05 in the morning on Tuesday. So kind of fun to be like across the world, but yet talking to each other here in our home studios. So I'm excited to have Kathryn here.
Christina Kohl:Let me do a brief introduction and then we'll just kind of dive right in. So Kathryn Sandford is a career brand leadership coach, and she has a proven background in recruitment and a passion for helping midlife women navigate career transitions with confidence and purpose. And with over 20 years of experience in recruitment, Kathryn has interviewed and supported countless professionals, gaining deep insight into what it takes to stand out in today's competitive market. Now, as a coach, Kathryn specializes in empowering professional women over the age of 40 to redefine their value, build influential personal brands and future-proof their careers Crossroads. Kathryn combines her expertise with her own lived experience to deliver empathetic, actionable strategies that help her clients get seen, heard and valued. And Kathryn's mission is simple to help women reclaim their careers, amplify their leadership potential and thrive in their next chapter with clarity, visibility and impact All right, everyone. So with that introduction, you can see why I have invited Kathryn to join us on the Her Next Chapter podcast. Kathryn, welcome to the podcast. We're so glad to have you join us.
Kathryn Sandford:Thank you very much. It's been an honor and I'm very excited to be here with you, Christina, and to have a chat about life.
Christina Kohl:Yes, to have a chat and there's so many things in that introduction, in that bio, that might resonate with me and my audience and so really excited to have this conversation with you and learn from each other and your great depth of experience.
Kathryn Sandford:Thank you. Thank you, I hope my accent is okay. I hope everybody Totally fine.
Christina Kohl:I understand you perfectly, and I mean, if nothing else, it's just fun to listen to a different accent, totally fine. Well, let's just kind of start with your background. Tell us your story and how it is that you have become a personal, a career brand leadership coach.
Kathryn Sandford:Yeah, that's the recent little tweak that I've made. My background started in teaching. I was a teacher and loved it. I actually really, really enjoyed teaching. And then I moved into the administration management side. At quite a young age I was offered what we call a deputy principal, so we had the head of the college and then of the school and then my role along with two others, and that was my first defining moment of not really understanding my place. I thought, you know, it was great because I was tapped on the shoulder, I was picked out as somebody who needed to grow and get you know more responsibility and this is the way you're going to go. And I was also like the money and I had an ego. I loved, you know, the status of having my own office. Even though it had no windows, it was still my own office right so I took the job but very quickly realized that it wasn't me.
Kathryn Sandford:I'm not an admin detail-y person, I just, you know, doing programs and setting up the courses and doing all the oh, it just wasn't me. And so, but I didn't know how to get out. I didn't know because I thought, because I love teaching, I thought it can't be that bad, surely it will get better, until I had a defining moment in the staff room when one of the teachers who I was struggling with on a personal basis took my coffee mug, which triggered a response that shocked me, and that was yeah, I just told her off and while it was happening, I had my voice saying stop, stop, this is not you. And then the other one going go for it, and I realized. Then I just stopped and thought, oh my God, I ran into my office and realized that I was unhappy, that I had to do something, because this kind of behavior was so frightening for me that I just thought that and that was my moment of just thinking, okay, what can I do? And the first thing I did was ring my husband and he said well, you know what to do. The first thing is you've got to go and apologize. I was like, yeah, okay, which I did. And then I went home that night and I had a chat to my husband and just said, look, I think I'm going to resign, which I did. So that was the kind of the starting point of the journey.
Kathryn Sandford:Now I still didn't learn. I kind of fumbled because in those days you never really personal development wasn't, was more yoga-ish, and mindset wasn't a thing. There was nothing there. I mean, you just did your job, you went and got you know as a woman. I didn't really understand that I needed to define who I was in order to be the best I could be. It was just kind of you just went with it. And so I just had this eclectic career where I just moved from place to place and wasn.
Kathryn Sandford:It wasn't until I was probably I had children at the time and they were 12 or 13, very aware of what their mother was doing that I entered into this phase of what I call a pathway of just total disorientation about who I was, and that was probably around. I was probably about 40, and I entered into the got these jobs because I was good at getting jobs. I was good at jobs, but I was not good at defining the right place for me to shine and add value. And so I ended up going through three roles where I got fired. So, and not fired like terrible, but it was like like this is not working, we've got to sort something out. And I realized, yeah, but it was still fired because they're telling you to go. So I don't care what everybody says when you're made redundant or whatever. When somebody says you're out, you're fired. It's just like a bit like the dragon's den you know out.
Kathryn Sandford:And on the third time that was my second a third realization I've got to do something. So then was when I started getting a coach sorting my kind of who am I, where do I best fit? How does it work? And that was really the defining part for me. To end up where I am now was realizing I can't do this alone. I need someone to help me sort it out.
Kathryn Sandford:And so from there I went into recruiting, set up a recruitment company with my business partner and I realized there were many women and men struggling to position themselves, particularly around their mid-40s in their careers. And where do we go and how do we go and what do we do? And that age is more vulnerable, more open to the roadblock or the blocks and challenges of ageism. So all these things were coming at them and the world of work after COVID is disruptive.
Kathryn Sandford:So from there I started looking at what is it that makes you understand who you are? And it's more around for me, the personal brand. So that's my sort of exploration, I sense from my own experience, into helping others and realizing that understanding who you are and having clarity about who you are and where you best add value and how you best serve others, gives you the focus and direction to be able to navigate your career path. And it's a future proof, because there is no way you go back to being that lost because you, unless you choose to be well, yeah, can't stop that what I love about your story, katherine, is you said something a minute or two ago that you were good at getting jobs um, which was, which is great.
Christina Kohl:It's a great skill to have. But what you were missing was the clarity to know what job was best well suited for you and vice versa. So you're landing in the job and then finding out whether it's for your own or being told this isn't working. Goodbye.
Kathryn Sandford:Yeah, very true. And the realization was I'm very intuitive and I was not listening to my intuition. You weren't listening to yourself. I remember the first job I took. I walked up the stairs through to reception and then said I'll just go to the intuition. You weren't listening to yourself. I remember the first job I took. I walked up the stairs through to reception and then said I'll just go to the bathroom. And I got there and I knew that this wasn't I've made a mistake. I looked in the mirror and I thought you've made a mistake, but it can't be that bad. You know, it can't be, it has to be. I mean, I'm sure I can make it work.
Christina Kohl:I'm could work, I'm sure, at least at least for a year, right, so that we can like, not have so we don't have a good job. History, yeah, and I've been there. I've been like I was just thinking about the other day how, in interviews, particularly when I was younger you know, my 20s that I would interview and I would try to answer the questions correctly, regardless of whether it was a good fit for me or not. I'm just trying to like, get hired and I'll be whoever you need me to be. I'll guess. I'll, hopefully I hopefully I guessed right and give you a good answer, rather than coming from a place of maturity Um, and not that maturity is age-based right but a place of wisdom to know this is who I am, this is what I offer. These are the types of things I want to work on and a type of environment I'm going to thrive in, and to go into an interview with that kind of confidence of interviewing the company as much as they're interviewing you, instead of just the goal of like, please hire me.
Christina Kohl:It's a completely different mindset shift and, surprisingly, it does take us into a little bit more advanced in years to get to that point, and my audience is generally, you know, moms of older kids that may be going through a season of life where they're kind of finding their identity outside of their family life anyway, whether they've been stay-at-home moms or not. But it's also kind of the season of you know, it's a season of an opportunity. One person who reached out to me she was talking to me about can you help me with my last chapter and I'm like last chapter, no, no, I'm talking about your next chapter and it's a plural. There are many more to come. It's not just that you are a mom and had raised a family and that's over. It's like there's a whole bunch of life left to be lived and anyway, that's off on a tangent there. But I love your, your, your background and your story. So you started a recruitment firm and how did it?
Kathryn Sandford:turn into branding, like how does that come into the story? Well, um, we set up the recruitment firm, um, probably a couple of years before COVID hit. But when COVID hit, everything shut down. You couldn't come in and you couldn't leave.
Kathryn Sandford:And so what happened there was our company was just about to take off because we'd just started a couple of years before and we'd just built our base of clients and candidates and we had a number of contracting roles that were happening and they just stopped. So everything stopped and we weren't allowed to connect with each other or nothing. So we sat in Zoom, my business partner and my colleague, and because I have a learning and development background and we were getting these calls, I said to them well, why don't I just put together how to write a CV? Because people were saying how do I need a CV? What do I do on LinkedIn and how do I get ready for this world? I've lost my job. I've never had to look for a job before because I've been in it for 20 years and et cetera, et cetera, and I know that it's going to get better?
Kathryn Sandford:And what do I need to prepare? So I said, oh well, I'll just do a little video on my phone and write a course and then we'll just put it out there, which is how we did it how to write your CV, how to Marie Kondo your CV, because we thought get rid of the crap, just put two pages in.
Christina Kohl:Oh, I love that, I love that, and for my American listeners, the CV is essentially the same thing as what we call a resume. Yes, my American listeners, the CV is essentially the same thing as what we call a resume.
Kathryn Sandford:Yes, yes, yes, it's funny that, isn't it? Just different words. No worries, I go back and forth with it these days.
Christina Kohl:But some people are like what? I don't know? What's the CV? And even if you, how do you say that in the long version?
Kathryn Sandford:Curriculum vitae Vitae. Curriculum vitae.
Christina Kohl:Yeah.
Kathryn Sandford:So we did that and then from there I just kind of fell into working with an instructional designer around developing an online course called your Brand, your Story, which was a very in-depth online course which I coach as well, which has led on to other services. But essentially we set this up, put it online, sold it, coached around it, and that was sort of me. That's the start. Really. It was just doing something when I was not able to do anything and it's kind of evolved from there and so now I use the.
Kathryn Sandford:Your brand, your story is the basis. It's like a master online coaching program where you get access to me through group coaching or one-on-one, depending on what you want, and the basis of that is set up around what I believe is the key essentials to developing your brand. The key first steps is how do I gain clarity? How do I know who I am? What is it that I need to know about myself so that I can start my journey?
Kathryn Sandford:And I'm a very strong believer is that you write your own story, you write your own CV and you write your own about section on LinkedIn and then you just get help to fine tune it, whether it's chat, gpt or someone else, and then you just get help to fine tune it, whether it's chat, gpt or someone else. But the number of times I've seen people hand over their CVs to CV writers who may be great but they don't know their story, and so what you do is you get a list of tasks and you think who are you? I know that you can do it, but who are you really?
Christina Kohl:Right, right, yeah, we definitely have that in common, Because people might come to me and they'll say just write my resume, just do it for me, Like I don't work that way. I do it with you and we'll do it together, but I teach you how to do it, so that way you don't have to come back to me in two years, five years, because you're going to gain the skills to know how to talk about yourself in a way that you know. I haven't termed it as branding, but that's effectively what it is. Yeah.
Kathryn Sandford:It's the very first step. I think that the self-awareness is the personal internal reflection, introspection I suppose, and then the CV is the action of it, the external presentation. So my saying is your CV gets you to the door, your personal brand takes you to the future.
Christina Kohl:I like that. I'm all about future. Yeah, and you have to know that personal brand before you can create the resume. I was talking to someone the other day about this analogy of going on vacation. So we can go to the mountains and go skiing, or maybe we're going to go to the beach, and if I'm going to be packing to go on that vacation, am I going to pack a bathing suit and sunblock and sunglasses, or am I going to be packing my snow boots and a snow jacket? Well, it depends on where I'm headed. I own all of those things, but I'm not going to bring all of them with me on that particular vacation.
Christina Kohl:And that's what I was talking to someone about, the analogy. It's like well, you need to know where you're, what job you're headed towards, like which, what career path do you want, and then you don't, because your resume is not. I'm going off tangent a little bit, but your resume is not just a historical document. So many people list everything, their CV, they list everything on it and it's like no, we only want to list the things that are pointing in the direction that you want to go and the rest can just like stay. You know, they don't go anywhere. They can just go in a different document, a longer CV that has everything on it, the one that you're actually going to use, is going to be ready for that destination.
Kathryn Sandford:I like that. That's a wonderful analogy. Can I steal it?
Christina Kohl:You can steal it. It's on LinkedIn too. I've already posted about it. I'll have to post about it again.
Kathryn Sandford:It's been a while that's a really good analogy, actually Very good, I like it.
Christina Kohl:Thank you, Especially from one career coach to another.
Kathryn Sandford:Well, tell me what's it like working with you, like, where do you start with your clients and how do they navigate through the coaching with you, with the emphasis on branding? Yeah, we go through what I call a kind of an audit, a life audit, because I believe that you already know the answers. They just don't know how to get them out. So we just do this. Some of them call it quite emotional because it really, you know, digs deep and I send it back if I don't believe that they've. If they've done it rushed and they go. How do you know? And I thought I can tell. So it's quite a. It's not only well, when you're on board you kind of you the expectations are very clear and then we work through the self-reflection piece. But but I'm all action-based. So once you've gone through the self-reflection, you have an understanding, you can position your value, you understand what your values are, you know what you're looking for.
Kathryn Sandford:Then we go into practical application and it is around. If you want a job, interviews, whatever it is that you identify you need the most work on. That's where we work and I'm a great proponent of supporter of LinkedIn as a place of visibility and we have quite in-depth sessions around setting your LinkedIn strategy that's for you, no one else. So you don't compare yourself to anybody else, which is what we do on LinkedIn, yeah, else, so you don't compare yourself to anybody else, which is what we do on LinkedIn, yeah. And you commit to that strategy for a month and then you come back to me and tell me how it worked. So in my coaching there's three. There's pillars, the clarity section, then there's the strategy of setting the strategy to take action and then there's the delivery, which are the results is what action or what platforms am I going to use to position my personal brand, to get me where I want to go?
Christina Kohl:sounds very similar to what I yeah, what I did. One of the things that we talked about before you know, getting ready for the call was, um, some resilience and adaptability and overcoming challenges. So a lot of my audience are maybe starting over like if they've been out of the workforce for a long time as stay-at-home moms, or maybe they're ready to pivot to do something completely different Again. With age comes wisdom, and when you think about, well, what did you want to be when you were little and it was something like it doesn't look anything like what I'm doing today, and so I'm just curious, like with those career pivots and the resilience piece, because it takes a lot.
Christina Kohl:Job searching is hard and you have to be willing to keep putting yourself out there after rejection, after rejection, after rejection. So I'm wondering how you help your clients navigate through those types of changes, as well as that support of just being strong. So I'm wondering how you help your clients navigate through those types of changes, as well as that support of just being strong and resilient during a job search. Kind of gave you two questions there.
Kathryn Sandford:So we look at the world of work and the reality of what sucks, what we actually have to face. So for many people who are looking at resetting their career, recognizing what the barriers are to that journey of figuring out what you need, what the reality is, finance, ageism, sexism, the whole bit, all the isms.
Christina Kohl:All the isms yeah, yeah.
Kathryn Sandford:And so the reality check is we list it out and we put it on a piece of paper and we stick it on the wall and you look at it for two days, just sit there and look at it and just get familiar with it. Really, that's all it is. And then what we do next is then we look at okay, so we know these realities are there, these roadblocks, these challenges, it could be finances and that. So what is the first top three things that you think you need to address to help you move forward? Now? I might pick money, they might pick lack of interview skills, confusion, whatever it is that they do, and so we go okay, let's get to these. How do we do that? And usually it's getting clarity, looking at some strategies and then practicing. And there's a load of challenges that they do that I send them on to start, for example, to apply for three jobs and expect three rejections, and then ring up the recruiter and ask why you were rejected and then pick a job that you think you'll get ghosted on.
Christina Kohl:Just these things that you just Kathryn, it almost sounds like a bingo card. I don't know. Are you feeling like you know? Okay, yeah, all of in that column like so let's do all fill out the whole card. What are there about?
Kathryn Sandford:like 25 or so spots on a bingo card, yeah, and then if you kind of gamify it, it makes it not so hard well, it makes it, and the and your subconscious is starting to recognize well, this, this is what happens, this is this is right, because you've already experienced it and you're okay with it.
Christina Kohl:Right, right, there was one client I was working with a few years back and she was a physician assistant and certified in a different state rather than the one that we lived in, and she needed to be sponsored by a doctor in her home state in order to get recertified. And so I asked her and she was receiving some medical treatment herself. So I'm like you've got some good relationships with doctors, you like. She's like yeah. I'm like well, how many of them have you asked to be your sponsor? She's like none. I'm like okay. Well, how many do you think it'll take? How many doctors do you think you'll have to ask to get a? Yes? I think I asked her that question first and she said maybe 20. Okay, how many have you asked so far? That was the answer of none.
Christina Kohl:Like okay, so you know what your assignment is to start asking, because if it's going to take 20, then each no gets you closer to the yes. And I like that idea I mean you didn't say bingo card, but that's what I was hearing Like I like that idea of like okay, you're going to apply for three jobs and get three rejections. You're going to apply for a job that you think is over your head or you know too hard for you and see what you're going to. You might get ghosted and just make it a game and then reward yourself somehow after getting bingo or whatever. But so I think I'm going to steal that from you Together, um, so I think I'm gonna steal that from you together. We can use it together, um, because, yeah, it is, it's hard job searching.
Kathryn Sandford:It is. The reality is it's hard. It's absolutely starting over, starting again being made redundant. I mean it's. It is really hard. My goal when working with my clients is around. This is never going to happen to you again. When it does if it does and it can you know exactly? You'll read the signs, you'll know you won't be sitting there waiting.
Christina Kohl:You'll actually be taking action well and hopefully they've also learned some networking skills. Oh yeah, you know is, and you hear that the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is today. Same thing with networking. And I think networking needs a rebrand katherine, maybe you've got it for it because it's this sound. It just feels icky. And I remember I had someone on a call I was doing like a workshop and they're like networking, just I'm not going to reach out to someone just to like use them, like well, that's not networking.
Kathryn Sandford:Um, you know, it's more collaborative and investing in people right, and so I've got a program called invisible to influence. Invisible. Invisible to influence through that, because a lot of us not knowing how to self-remote means we're invisible yeah, I mean, we're expecting someone else to do it for us if we're employed already, and yeah or else we just don't know enough to be able to say I'm actually that good because I don't know how to do it.
Kathryn Sandford:I'm too scared, how do I, you know? And we have networking tips. But the fact is that moving from invisibility to influence creates impact and credibility. So it's a no-brainer really. And then you get to celebrate, you have fun, you know. It's just like. You know where you are, you know who you are and you know, when you walk into an environment, how to be you and be okay with it so what are your best tips?
Kathryn Sandford:tell us some of your secrets um, I think once again, it comes down to the practice of positioning yourself and doing very simple is look in the mirror and say positive affirmation of how great you are, walk outside and leave the bathroom or wherever you are, go talk to your partner or whoever and just repeat that affirmation to them and they'll go oh, mum, but they'll like it, yeah. And then talk to your friends, talk about your journey on what you're actually doing to take action, because we're all going through the same thought processes, the same difficulties, the same challenges, and we tend to think internalize it, but share it. Share what you're doing and what you hope to achieve. Don't make it so I have to go on a network working course or anything. Just do it within your little circle. Practice, do little challenges. Say hi to a stranger if you see, um, you know, in a lift, somebody's looking really fabulous. Hey, I love your, love your outfit, I love your coat, I love your shoe, whatever, just and smile. Just practice that and I use the 30-day challenge and you'll you suddenly start to feel like, oh, okay, the confidence of who you are, because people react to a smile, they like it, they love it and with that, I think, then the ability to step into a room where you know nobody and then I give tech strategies which I'll share is never approach two. People Always approach three, because when you approach two, they're having a combo right, whereas three is kind of there and you'll know. If you look, you'll know which two are having the combo and the third person will turn and then the conversation starts.
Christina Kohl:Ah, I love that. I thought you were going to say just approach a single person. That's what I do. You can't approach a single one. Yeah, when I'm in a big event and I don't know anybody, or I'm just there like I want to meet two people, I'll look for the other people who are alone and I'll rescue them, because they don't want to be alone either, and then I'll start up a conversation with them and then we're both now. Now we're a conversation of two instead of two solo people wondering, like, who are we going to talk to? But yeah, I like that idea of the three as well to join in.
Kathryn Sandford:Particularly when you're looking for that. Often your vision when you walk into a room join in. Particularly when you're looking for that. Often your vision when you walk into a room will only see groups, yeah, or people to. You won't actually be looking for that individual unless you specifically look. If you know what I mean, if you actually look around, um, but if you're walking into that room and you want to be courageous and practice approach, approach straight first.
Christina Kohl:Well, and I also love what you said, Kathryn, about just starting with your own friends, people that you know in real life, and I just had a workshop on this last month for the holidays like social networking around the holidays of the simple question of what are your New Year's resolutions or what goals do you have, and that can be for any season of year, what are you doing this summer? But asking the question first of your speaking partner, because most likely they're going to answer, and then turn around and ask you the same question and then you're going to be ready to say, well, I'm changing jobs this year, that's my goal. Oh, tell me more. And so it's really. You know that's networking.
Christina Kohl:But it's not like I'm going to this big event and I've got a crowded room and I have to go find the group of three people or the group of one person. It's just because you don't know who's gonna be the introduction, right? That's the beauty of networking. Again, it needs a rebrand. I wish I had another name for it. But making connections, you never know who's going to introduce you to that next opportunity. Um, we're always having that opportunity to connect with the human, other human being and showing interest in them and then allowing for those natural organic conversations to happen.
Kathryn Sandford:That's networking yeah, absolutely, connections and relationships. And how can I serve and add value to you? Because I don't have a business cards or anything. I don't use business cards. If I, you know, if you want to connect with me, linkedin, and I was. When was I at the other networking event? Oh, it was late last year and they said I've got a business card. And I went no, what do you mean? And they'd spent a couple of thousand dollars on business cards. I was like no, I don't use them, I just use linkedin yeah, same.
Christina Kohl:Here are you on a business card and yeah, I don't see a need for it these days. I mean, even when I had business cards from when I was working, you know for employers, yeah, the most that I would use them for maybe if a vendor came by that, like you know, we're meeting each other. But, yes, like in the fishbowl at a restaurant or you can get a free lunch.
Kathryn Sandford:Oh yeah, that's true. There are times there when I think, oh damn, I should have.
Christina Kohl:Yeah, but even then, just write your name on a piece of paper. That'll count as a business concern. But that's funny, yeah, something from last century that we've left behind, right? Or the last decade anyway. I'm curious for some of my listeners who are longtime stay-at-home moms and they're, or they've been, caregivers of a different capacity. They've taken time off work If you have any specific advice for people that are in that situation with a career gap, because a career gap, job search is a little more challenging and unique than someone who's currently working just wanting to make a change. So I don't know if that's of those people that you typically work with or if you have advice from your experience you know 20 years in recruiting- I have coached a few women who have come back into the workforce.
Kathryn Sandford:The thing that I would really strongly recommend is upskill in the technology side. I really think that, even if you're in a profession like an accountant or a lawyer or a sort of the white collar corporate world, I think upskilling in that digital technology space is really important. And to be a bit more future thinking like, not overnight, oh, I'll just get my CV done and then I'll start applying for jobs, it's not going to work. So what I've done and I'm thinking back with one of my clients, sarah we did kind of a fact find of what her she wanted to get back into banking, into the banks and where things were at when she was working, and it was probably about a 10-year gap by the time she was looking at going back in, I think, and where it's now and where the gap was within her skills and it was in the digital technology space. And so she went on a course.
Kathryn Sandford:They've got a couple of really good programs here that I promote within that space for people who are entering back into the workforce just, you know, ai, just technology and getting upskilled on that, and that's a really good grounding point. It's very practical. And then you start looking at the job search strategy, which is looking at your CV, working on your personal brand, you know, looking at those elements as well, but know the landscape, and then start looking at upskilling and invest in that I think is really important if you're coming back into the workforce.
Christina Kohl:Yeah, great advice and kind of dovetailing off of that. I encourage strategic volunteering, so find a place that needs your skills and that you can do it for free. But it also lets you kind of test the waters. If those skills are rusty, you're putting them into practice and finding out like, do I, do I still have gaps, you know, even after doing the work. It also lets you have current references, because if someone's been out for 10 years, the person that they reported to may not be around anymore. I mean seriously, they may not be on live anymore, or you may have been.
Christina Kohl:Um, it's happened to me where, like I'm like, well, I can't, I can't find them anywhere. I wonder what happened. I know there's some challenges and I can't find someone with a common name. I can't find them anywhere, at least the one that I reported to. And so there's that avenue of like you're getting current references, you're expanding your network, you're doing the actual work.
Christina Kohl:So that kind of puts an employer's mind a little bit at ease, like, oh, you've already been doing this work and it also gives you new things to talk about, rather than, okay, 10 years ago we had this problem, or when Y2K happened, you know, it's like, well, okay, that's, that's cute. What about what's happening now? What's Y2K Exactly? I had to explain it to my kids. Yeah, and you know it was a big. It was a big deal, but yeah, it's as big of a deal as COVID was, or kind of. Maybe not that big of a deal, but so, anyway, it's just. You know, I think that's one of the things that's really helped some of my clients and myself get back into the workforce. Is that strategic volunteering, because there's so many benefits from it. With that, is there anything that we missed, that we didn't cover, that you feel like we should?
Kathryn Sandford:I think the one thing that I've come across and I just had a meeting for the podcast was about comparison bias, about how we compare, how we should be. This whole comparison thing is becoming more and more evident. And I was just talking to a prospective client and listening to her talk I was like, yeah, a lot of, and particularly on LinkedIn. Because I was saying to her well, let's have a look at your profile, which was pretty bad. And I said, well, you want visibility and what? This is not all lined up. Oh well, you know, I really don't understand. I really don't want to do LinkedIn because everybody else gets lots of likes and if I don't get the likes, then you know this kind of thing. And I really, and I said, well, who's the person you admire? Oh well, my uh, general manager, you know somebody you'd like to role model. I said, well, why? Oh, because she's very successful career woman and I'd like to, which is not bad.
Kathryn Sandford:But the way she described it. I said, well, what does success look like for you when you see her? Oh well, she's always in her office, you know, she's always working. I was like, interesting, wasn't it right? And this one was 45 ish, you know, maybe a little bit earlier, but it was just the comparison of um, how that she thought she should be, and I had elements of that. When I think back when I was at when I took the job, when I was first teaching, it was like, oh well, if I can be like that, that means I have to do that job without really thinking about whether that job was right for me. Yeah, and I think comparison bias is something that we should be really when we determine our success. Success whose success are we determining, or what criteria, and being very clear about what that is, rather than saying I want to be like that because I see that as being successful right.
Christina Kohl:so comparing ourselves to our own goals and desires, to figure that out first, and then that becomes the benchmark.
Kathryn Sandford:It's our benchmark and I can see being inspired.
Christina Kohl:By someone else.
Kathryn Sandford:Oh, absolutely.
Christina Kohl:Right, oh, I'm inspired of that and one of the podcast guests in the past. She talked about envy being something to really help you with clarity and she made a distinction and I'm not going to remember it clearly between envy and jealousy. But envy is like it's, it can help you with your goals. Like I'm envious, what is it about that person that I'm envious of? And when you said that you know you're the person said well, she works all the time. Like, well, I'm not envious of that. But so what else is it Like? Is it the role? Is it the way she carries herself? Like what is it?
Christina Kohl:And then you know, maybe determine your own blueprint for where you want to go and then do the comparison Am I where I want to be? Yeah, yeah, and it's hard in today's world. I mean it's hard for our kids, but you know, young adults, teenagers, whatever, but it's hard for us too. I mean we are just as um caught up in that comparison that we, we're always playing oh, it's all the kids and the social media is so bad, like well, it's bad for us too and we need to keep that mindset and I'm glad you brought it up that you know what, what's the, the age-old thing, that comparison is the thief of joy, and it's one thing to hear that and to say that, but to like really sit with that for a minute with it and understand it and how it impacts on you and what you believe you to, who you be, who you believe to be and what you want to be, or, um, you know, it's that whole thing of be who you want to be, so that be.
Kathryn Sandford:Do have right, figure it out. Do you be, do you have?
Christina Kohl:yeah, yeah, interesting. Yeah, it's been very um, I don't know. I mean, I fall, I fall into that trap all the time. Oh gosh, the other day I got this post and I didn't. I only got two likes. And you know what am I doing wrong? And this person put out a post and they get 25 likes, and you know it's yeah, it is, and this is the thing people avoid it.
Kathryn Sandford:I mean, I recently post this morning actually posted a video of me. I went for a big walk on one of our islands out here. I did not realize I thought it was 45 minutes, you know, it ended up being hours. But they had these stairs that just kept going like oh my God, yeah, steps, you know, up, up, up, up, and then you up, up, up, and I just keep going up and up and up and I was thinking, oh my God. So I thought, oh well, I'll just do a video about how you think you reached the top. But there's always more to come.
Christina Kohl:Oh, I love that. I love that there's a book. I wish I could remember the name of the author in real time, but I'll find it and I'll put it in the show notes. One of the titles of his books, I think, is the title is The Gap and The Gain. Ah right, and that's been. Really, when I get kind of like keep forgetting about, like, what I've accomplished already, I'm always like what's next, what's next?
Christina Kohl:And it's like well, pause, turn around and look at where you've come, look at those steps that you've already climbed and appreciate those turning, turn around and look, look behind you and see all the steps, all the, all the gain, all the things that you've gained and done and accomplished, and all those steps knowing that there's still a gap between where you want to go, because we keep moving the target right, because, okay, accomplish that, and then we, we don't even like pause to celebrate it. It's like great, accomplish that. Now I gotta like have a bigger target, and then a bigger target, and then a bigger target. Like you said, the steps never end. So, yeah, all these, all these great metaphors and analogies I wish I could remember that author's name, but the gap, yeah, one of his books that I know.
Kathryn Sandford:I did struggle with posting that post because I'm in my raw gear. You know I'm puffing, I'm sweaty, and my colleague that's you know I'm puffing, I'm sweaty, and my colleague goes that's you, don't worry about it. I was like yeah, why am I worried about? Because that's the reality. This is what's actually happening.
Christina Kohl:Right, right, yeah, yeah, well, Kathryn, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time on your Tuesday, now, your Tuesday afternoon, on my Monday afternoon.
Kathryn Sandford:Yes, I think it is Lunchtime-ish.
Christina Kohl:Lunchtime for you. It'll be my dinner time in another hour on Monday. I'll catch up to you tomorrow, but in the meantime, what do you have going on that people how they can connect with you. I think you have a cohort going on something like that. Tell us about that and then how people can connect with you if they want to learn more.
Kathryn Sandford:Okay, so the best way to connect with me at the moment is through LinkedIn. I've got my website being redone so that won't be until the end of the month, January 31st.
Christina Kohl:Do you know what the address is?
Kathryn Sandford:Kathryn. My name, com Very easy, and it'll be on LinkedIn as well. But LinkedIn is probably my most relevant up-to-date to the time reality time platform and up there I have a personal brand cohort group called Invisible to Influential, and that's starting March, the 15th, where we have the masterclass online program, your Brand, your Story. We have group coaching sessions. It's six weeks with a revised CV, revised LinkedIn profile and we work through the three pillars of my personal brand program moving you from invisibility through to influence, to create impact. So that's the whole theme and it's with a group of no more than 10 women. We have a 30 minute discovery call which we just get to know each other. This is what the program is all about and then, if you're keen, we go into a strategy call which takes you through the program, what the expectations are. Okay cool.
Christina Kohl:Well, I will include your LinkedIn in the show notes and I'm going to go ahead and probably put your website in there too, even though, knowing that right now, in real time, it's not available, but it will become available soon. So it's very exciting, yes, very exciting. Well, good luck with the website. Uh, revision, I know that's a lot of work and, yes, thank you again for joining us today and sharing your wisdom and and all the insights.
Kathryn Sandford:It's been a great conversation I've had a thoroughly wonderful time. Thank you for inviting me. Absolutely, I've really enjoyed it.
Christina Kohl:All right. Well, with that, everyone, that ends our episode for this week. Have a wonderful week and we'll talk to you next time and maybe see you next time. Thank you so much for listening today. I hope this episode hit home for you and, if you haven't already, be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn and say hello so I can personally thank you for listening. Until next time. Remember your story is uniquely your own, and your next chapters are ready to begin.