Her Next Chapters

71. Rediscovering Your Career: Women, Midlife, & Meaningful Work With Guest Jackie Brown

• Christina Kohl

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Have you ever felt like your career path is leading you away from success and into confusion? In today’s episode, we dive deep into the transformative journey many women experience as they navigate the complexities of midlife career changes. Joining us is Jackie Brown, a career and leadership coach who specializes in helping individuals reclaim their sense of purpose and redefine their identities beyond their current job titles.

Jackie shares her own journey of thriving as a graphic designer and creative director to feeling unfulfilled and lost in her career. Her experience resonates with many women confronting similar feelings as their children grow up and they face identity shifts. Highlighting the importance of personal growth, Jackie explains how understanding one’s true desires and values is crucial to finding meaningful work.

Listeners will gain insights on practical strategies to rediscover joy and curiosity in their professional lives. Jackie outlines her method of Audit, Assess, and Align as a transformative framework to help individuals identify their strengths and redefine their paths.

This episode empowers women to embrace change not as a crisis but as an opportunity to realign their careers with their values and passions. Tune in for an engaging discussion that inspires action and encourages you to take the next steps in your professional journey.

Clarity Assessments:
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Connect with Jackie:
shiftingsuccess.com 
linkedin.com/in/jackie-brown-coach
"Work on Purpose" free gift


Grab the Free Strengths-First Resume Template - it's perfect for anyone in career transitions, whether with a long career gap, a career pivot, or just ready for a change.
Want to chat about your career goals? Schedule a free call HERE.
Send me an email ---> christina@hernextchapters.com
Connect with me on LinkedIn ---> www.linkedin.com/in/kohlchristina





Christina Kohl:

Hi and welcome to Her Next Chapter's podcast. I'm your host, Christina Kohl. I'm a mom of three and soon to be an empty nester. I'm also a certified HR pro who restarted my career after being a stay-at-home mom for over a decade. I created this podcast to connect with moms who have an empty nest on the horizon and are wanting to redefine their identity outside of motherhood, which might include a job search. On this show, we'll have raw conversations about our ever-changing roles as moms. We'll hear from women who restarted their careers and share tips for a job search after a career break. So if that's you, you're in the right place. Friend, let's get started. Hi, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Her Next Chapters. I am excited to share that we have a guest with us today.

Christina Kohl:

Jackie Brown is joining us, and Jackie is a career and leadership coach. She helps purpose-driven leaders navigate the messy middle of their careers when success no longer feels fulfilling and the next step isn't clear. And after years of building a successful, creative career, jackie found herself stuck questioning what success even meant anymore. That journey led her to discover that the key to meaningful work isn't just about finding the right job. It's about reclaiming who you are and using your strengths to create real impact. Can you tell why I've invited her on the show today? And through Jackie's identity and impact framework, she helps her clients clear out their overgrown career garden that no longer fits, pruning away outdated roles and expectations to make space for work that aligns with their values, talents and vision for the future. She believes that mid-career isn't a crisis, is an opportunity to realign, redefine and grow in new directions. And when Jackie's not coaching, you can find her lost in a creative project, deep in a good book, her flower beds or on the Golf Course. Well, welcome, jackie. We're so glad to have you with us today.

Jackie Brown:

Thank you, Christina. It's an honor to be here. Thank you.

Christina Kohl:

Absolutely Well with that bio. That just kind of tells a big story there. But I'd love to hear it directly from you, if you can just kind of take us back to your early career, like how you get started on that path and what that path has looked like and the pivots along the way. I love talking about career pivots on this show.

Jackie Brown:

Yes, they are absolutely fascinating, although it might have been kind of messy in that middle, yes, but certainly I grew up as a graphic designer and I absolutely loved it. So for 30 years I was on the creative side of advertising and marketing graphic designer, creative services manager, creative director, both in-house at corporations and then in the agency life. I worked on Music Row, agency life. I worked on Music Row. It was a really fascinating and fast-paced career that I absolutely loved until I didn't.

Jackie Brown:

It was such a shock to me to watch that spark fizzle out. It just seemed like things really started to shift maybe about four or five years ago, seemed like things really started to shift maybe about four or five years ago. I tried everything to get that spark back. I mean, certainly, being in the creative field, I knew what creative blocks looked and felt like and how to get through them. But this was different. I tried learning new skills, new clients, different types of projects, but nothing really seemed to ignite that spark that I used to feel I was just feeling restless and uninspired and lost. I was certainly one of those people that was stuck in their career.

Christina Kohl:

And do you think that was just boredom, doing the same types of things over and over? Can you pinpoint kind of what happened there?

Jackie Brown:

Sure. So certainly hindsight is 20-20. But at that moment I had no idea what was going on. But now, after years of research and studying and working with clients and training in this field, I see that there's an intersection of personal growth and professional development and growth, that I was in a wonderful, challenging opportunity to navigate those intersections of personal growth and professional growth.

Jackie Brown:

There is science that shows that people who have been in a career or a role for quite a long time certainly for me it was 30 years, but it can even start to happen in 10 or 20 years that the satisfaction in that role, in that job, even in that career, can start to decline and declines pretty quickly. And this can be for people who have shown what society would talk about as career growth. You know you're getting promotions, you're getting new responsibilities, but still being in that same industry can tend to really start to see a down curve in our job satisfaction. And that certainly aligns with our professional I mean, I'm sorry with our personal growth as well, because a lot of times, 10, 20 years into being an adult, we are often going through some personal development as well and a lot of personal changes, whether that's empty nesting or certainly some physical changes, menopause for women, for instance. So those personal growth changes and the professional development changes for me came at an interesting intersection, that's for sure.

Christina Kohl:

So it's one of the you hear this a lot where everything looks good on paper, right, you've got the good job, you've got the career, you've gone up the ladder, you've had growth, but internally just something is off and you just you know whether we call it burnout or just you know, like I should be happy, I have everything I wanted. I should be happy, but I'm not, and I think a lot of people can relate to that. So what did you do? Like did you just quit? Or like what was that transition like for you? Because you've obviously made a big transition, but tell us a little bit like how that came about. And and then know, bring this up to what you do today sure.

Jackie Brown:

So certainly for me. Uh, it was about a year of flailing about um, a birthday. It certainly was a big, pivotal moment for me. As I reflected on that past year, uh, I really felt like a failure, like this past year has been awful and I haven't done anything to show for it, for instance, and what kept coming up for me was impact. I knew that I wanted to have impact and, like you mentioned the standard markers of success, I had achieved those. I had won awards, I had certainly gotten promotions, I had gotten recognition both within the industry and within my organizations, and those didn't feel like success anymore. So it really shifted for me to think about what impact meant. I went down that road quite a bit. I was listening to podcasts, taking personality tests, all the usual things that I think a lot of us go through. But what really hit home for me, christina, was when I was in counseling and I was talking about impact and the counselor said the counselor said what does impact really mean to you? And I couldn't define it. I had no idea what it truly specifically meant. So To do that, I felt that I really needed to rediscover who I was, beyond that title, beyond those typical markers of success. That had what then defined me.

Jackie Brown:

For a while. I loved being a creative director. I felt like I was one of the cool kids when I said that. So if I wasn't going to be that anymore, then who was I? So if I wasn't going to do that anymore, then who was I? So that's when it really clicked for me that this wasn't a work or job problem. It was an identity problem.

Jackie Brown:

So that's when I really started looking for my strengths and talents, the value that I brought to the world beyond those titles and roles, value that I brought to the world beyond those titles and roles. And that journey led me to a lot of different personal and professional development, types of training and studies. And that's when I saw that my talents and strengths really lined up with coaching. And then, as I looked into coaching more, I absolutely fell in love with it and it really scratched the itch of what I was enjoying at the end of my creative direction career. I was running my own business and I loved working with my clients in the conversations that we had. The creative part of it wasn't as fulfilling anymore, but those conversations were where I really found my joy. So, as I pulled that thread then. Coaching really helped me to express my talents and strengths and to use my wisdom in a way that really feels aligned with who I am and where I want to be in the future aligned with who I am and where I want to be in the future.

Christina Kohl:

Wow, there's a lot, okay, so cause you. When you first mentioned impact, wanting to have impact number one I I can relate to that. But secondly, I was in my mind I'm like, well, what does impact mean? And and that's the journey that you went on for yourself when your therapist asked you that question I'm like, yeah, um, so you had kind of just a lot of exploration. It sounds like and and learning and checking in with yourself. And I love that too.

Christina Kohl:

Like when I, when I coach with my clients, because I'm coaching them on job search, right, right, and it's like, okay, your resume, it's very tactical, the resume, the LinkedIn, the networking, all of that. But the part that I love the most is this kind of mentoring, I guess the coaching piece, not just the how-to, but the mindset. You know, I had someone tell me yesterday I have PTSD over applying for jobs and getting rejected. I'm like, okay, let's pause for a minute. We're not going to work on the resume right now, we're going to work on mindset stuff. So I can relate to what you're saying as seeing that impact, what impact you're having. So you were having impact, helping people with their creative projects, but recognizing what was most rewarding for you and internally rewarding was the coaching, the, the. I don't know if it's mindset type stuff, if that was what your coaching was, but it sounds like that was kind of the direction that that led you to a new path. And am I right?

Jackie Brown:

Yes, absolutely, and that's a really good point about what does impact mean at different parts of our career. So those creative projects absolutely had impact on helping the businesses grow, but that wasn't fulfilling to me anymore. And that again goes to that personal growth. I had been growing as a person and really wanted to have broader impact at a personal level. Helping businesses grow helped me establish safety and security and a presence. But then once we typically speaking and studies show we can look at Maslow's triangle or hierarchy of needs, then typically once we develop that sense of space or belonging within an industry or our community, for instance, then we really start looking for more impact and meaning in how we interact with people, for instance, and our communities, where we are more about let's make a difference in the world. So I went from helping businesses grow to wanting to help people grow and that really was the shift in the type of impact that I was craving. So that's a great point.

Jackie Brown:

You know that my creative projects absolutely had impact, but that wasn't the type of impact that felt good to me anymore. I was craving something different. So it absolutely took a lot of reflection, self-discovery, trying a lot of different things. I think there's that whole thing about the more that you experiment, the more that you will learn about yourself. You know, certainly I've spent a lot of time journaling and taking walks, but things really started to click when I would try things, and that's what I talk to my clients about. So, yes, this is looking great on paper, but now let's go try it out. But now let's go try it out, do volunteer work, become a mentee. So you are looking for a mentor in that new industry you're looking for or that's being interesting to you.

Christina Kohl:

So things like that, to experiment what this identity shift is starting to look and feel like for you. Yeah, that's all great advice and as I'm thinking of questions in my mind, you're already answering them, which is great, because a lot of you know people listening to this show. It's her next chapters. You know we're midlife women, that you know, whether we have kids or not, or we've been stay at home moms or not, it's kind of a season, at least I'm finding for myself and my peers. You know, what do I want out of life? Like I only have one life and there's only so many, so much time, you know, and you know we start to lose.

Christina Kohl:

I wasn't planning on going this direction, but we start to lose people that we love, as in they die because we're all getting older and it just it kind of becomes a season of life where we want more meaning in our efforts.

Christina Kohl:

Like you know, what are we doing? And whether it's a role that's changed because I've been a mom and my kids are young adults and it's that identity shift has happened, or just, you know, maybe it's a career shift I've been laid off or you know, like, like your story, and part of mine too, is like I just am not fulfilled by this work anymore. So what my question is and you kind of started to talk about it, but I'd like to go a little deeper either what you specifically did or maybe what exercises how you help your clients that are facing these types of questions how do we in midlife, as women, how do we connect with ourselves to better understand and know what our next chapter is, what our impact is, what energizes us? Just curious, what advice you have for people that are kind of in that that in between space of identity, shift, transition, whatever that transition might be.

Jackie Brown:

Absolutely. I'm all about tips and techniques, for sure. So my basic framework is that we are going to audit and then we're going to assess and then align. So it's certainly where you are now what's working and what's not. And then I really because people typically have a pretty good understanding of what's happening right now they know they don't like this, they just don't know what else to turn to. So what I really encourage people to do is to look for the joy. Look for anything. It's not even necessarily in the work that we do. It's anything that sparks joy. Spend more time in that, so you start to become comfortable with oh, this is what it feels like. Right, I forgot what this is all about. I mean, I know I was just at an event with my husband's work and these other two ladies I was talking to. I asked them what they were enjoying doing over the winter and they said they stopped for a minute and they said, actually, I don't know what I enjoy anymore. It's all about the kids. So I think that's absolutely a moment.

Jackie Brown:

That is a really key understanding is looking for the joy. That is good for us, so that we can recognize what that feels like. And once we start to remember what that feeling is like. Then we can look for it in those things that we're doing. For me it was, oh my gosh, these client conversations are amazing. So that really helped me think about. Okay. My time at the computer working on design or working with other freelancers on an advertising campaign was not very helpful for me anymore, but these client conversations are where I was really feeling the same type of joy as when I was in my flower beds, for instance. It's the flow state that is really amazing once we get into it, and it's helping people recognize it and then call it up on purpose. So that's absolutely the first thing is and it sounds so simple, but it really is so impactful. It's just look for the joy. Where are you feeling it?

Jackie Brown:

And then let's go from there.

Christina Kohl:

I love that and you said a term. I think it's pretty common these days. But just to like you said a term, I think it's pretty common these days but just to like, make sure that we're all using the same language flow state what is that?

Jackie Brown:

What does flow state mean to you? Could you give an example? Oh sure, so I might come at it from a more scientific background, especially being in the creative industry for a while. The flow state. There have been some amazing studies. There was a researcher that really helped to put the science behind flow state, and it's absolutely when we are so into an activity that all sense of time is lost. And that tends to happen when we are being challenged to use our skills a little bit more than what we are used to. And it's certainly something we're working on, something that has meaning to us, and it could be research for work, or it could be. You know, what am I going to be planting in my beds this spring? You know, it's something that means something to us and stretches us a little bit more. Those are the basics of what happens when we get into a flow state, but it certainly is a great indicator for what type of activities to lean towards.

Christina Kohl:

Yeah, I know for myself. There's times I'm a night owl to begin with, just to put that out there. So when you hear these times it's not totally out of the norm. So I'll be working on a project and I might start like at nine o'clock at night just because I'm excited about it. And next thing, I know it's one or two in the morning because I just get so excited and just keep going. And I've even had my husband come downstairs at like two or three in the morning. He's like are you okay? I'm like yeah, I'm working, I'm fine, but I just lose track of time and it's, you know, I pay for it the next day. We volunteer that because I still get up at my regular time. But there it is. It's a really cool experience to like just lose track of time and be immersed in something that you just enjoy so much. So, yeah, that's, that's flow state. Okay, you know you were talking about the first. The first part of reconnecting with yourself and figuring out what's next is looking for joy, and then what's what's next?

Jackie Brown:

So then we start to get more specific about what our strengths, talents and wisdom, how they all start to incorporate who we are at this stage of our life. So, while transferable skills are a huge phrase to use for people that are looking to shift careers, I really think that what is more applicable are the strengths that really feed our mode of operating. So, for instance, curiosity is one of my strengths. I have been naturally and unendingly curious since I was a little girl and I see that that was a great strength to be using, and I was able to express it as a creative director and I'm also able to use it with my clients now. So curiosity is one of my core strengths and that is can be called a skill. But I was doing myself a disservice by just thinking okay, what are the skills I can take from being a creative director? If I looked at those, coaching would not have come up as the skills that I could transfer. But when I looked at my strengths, I am naturally curious. I am a continuous learner, I am positive, that's just. You know. It's another big key moment for me I love arranging things. That's another key strength for me. My enthusiasm.

Jackie Brown:

So those type of strengths, how can we express those moving forward? What does it look like in these other careers or jobs that we've had? And then how could they be expressed moving forward? So we definitely look at strengths, talents, wisdom that you've gathered. So people might call that experience, but I'd like to call it wisdom, because a lot of times especially, for instance, moms who've been at home for a while the wisdom that they've gained, the experience that they've gained doing that role, absolutely feeds the wisdom that they can take into the workforce, where somebody might be using experience as what they did at a particular job. So there's, you know, some slight differences there, but I find that people really relate more to wisdom than to think about experience.

Christina Kohl:

Yeah, and I like that reframe of the word. I mean I cause I. My little cat phrase is unpaid experience is experience. But if we put it in that category of wisdom what have you gained that might help people understand it better. There's such a confidence gap too, not just the career gap, but the confidence gap Like who's going to hire me.

Christina Kohl:

I haven't worked in this many years. But to think of the wisdom that you've gained and experience I still have to use that word experience because I, you know, and I coach people to talk about those experiences in a professional way, you know, like for me, an an example is we've had a lot of medical challenges with my kids and I have navigated that through the benefits and the insurance as a patient and as a consumer and those are very transferable skills and marketable skills in the workplace and I did use those in some of my interviews when it had anything to do with healthcare and benefits. You bet I brought up my personal experience in those interview situations and whether it's wisdom because I figured out how to do it, or experience because I did it, it all kind of flows together.

Jackie Brown:

And you know, I think there's a great point there about that you are helping people to make tactical shifts with that wisdom and experience. So, absolutely, I tend to help people with the larger picture, the strategy parts of it, so to help them see it at a larger level, and then those examples that you gave really help people put it into practice. So this is what that wisdom would sound like in an interview, right, right.

Christina Kohl:

Exactly, exactly. So what's the next step?

Jackie Brown:

So then we start looking at the curiosity that people have about certain industries. So if a career pivot is needed and granted, I have plenty of clients who come to me thinking that they might want to pivot. But once we take a look at their strengths, values, wisdom, a lot of times they are able to redefine their current roles a little bit and find that spark. But those who are interested in pivoting, we start following their curiosities. So what industries, what type of work do they just Google or do they watch documentaries about? Or what just what comes up in conversation to them? What are they reading books about? So anything that helps to spark a little bit of curiosity is where they tend to find more drive and motivation to keep learning about it.

Jackie Brown:

Some people might call it following your passions. I'm a little leery of that. I think that's a good start, but certainly passions can fade away and curiosities really seem to have more sustainable power to them. There's some great research by Stephen Kotler or Kettler. He also does a lot of work in the flow state and he really emphasizes following our curiosities is much more sustainable than following our passions.

Christina Kohl:

Interesting. I hadn't heard it put that way, but I will share. I mean, as you're talking about curiosity, and if it's something that you're Googling because you're just interested in, that shows up on the tactical side too in the interviews, to know that this is, if we don't use the word passion, but something that I enjoy and I'm really motivated to do this work because and that's something that I talk with my clients about when they are whether it's in a cover letter, having it show up in their resume, but certainly in conversations and interviews that's going to make them stand out and be unique. When it's something like you've you've mentioned gardening a few times and so if, if it was, you know working, maybe maybe you wanted to go back and start doing the creative side and do design work and marketing. But if you were to do that for a garden center or a flower shop, that might bring back that curiosity for you and that excitement, because it's your personal hobby, your personal interest. I struggled there because I wanted to say passion, right, but it's something you get natural enjoyment from, exactly, and you marry that with your skills and it just makes you show up as a stronger candidate.

Christina Kohl:

Yes, and if I'm interviewing someone putting my HR hat on if I'm interviewing someone and they're otherwise equal. Putting my HR hat on if I'm interviewing someone and they're otherwise equal. And I have one telling me about their tulips are, you know, about to bloom and they're so excited, versus someone else who's just talking about the graphic design project, the one who has that interest and personal interest is going to rise to the top as far as who's going to get hired, and so just taking that one example, but that makes a lot of sense. And again, you called it out you're more broad and helping and I'm, like you know, I'm more in the tactical side of things, but we definitely have an overlap, okay, so where do things go next?

Jackie Brown:

So once we start looking at so, once we start gathering all the assessments and all the assets and people feel stronger in who they are, then that really does take care of quite a few issues that they might be having. And again, a lot of times this really helps set them off for re-sparking where they already are. And this is actually I mean, this is kind of a side benefit but is, I think, often overlooked when we get really strong in who we are, with our strengths, values and our purpose, that really does quiet the imposter. I, you know, especially here during career pivots, I have done speaking engagements just a few years into this and I stand up thinking I'm really nervous, who am I to be up here? You know, as a career person, I'm just a few years into it, despite all my training that I've had. But then the imposter gets really quiet when the real me says I have the strengths and the talents and the purpose. I really believe in this message and that definitely gets the imposter to just shut up and sit down Right. So absolutely, this, this middle part here, is so important. You know, finding this identity of who we are right now and then what we want to be doing forward.

Jackie Brown:

So that's so, then, to help people move forward, we do start looking at some of the tactical things. You know we are exploring the options. They're trying different things for a while and you know people have different risk levels. So a pivot to one person can absolutely be a different type of pivot to somebody else, absolutely be a different type of pivot to somebody else.

Jackie Brown:

So it's also assessing what type of logistics are needed to help this pivot and these experiments feel comfortable. You know, do you need to stay at your current job for a while while you're testing and volunteering? And, you know, having coffee chats with people who are in an industry that you might be exploring? So those are certainly some of the tactical things that we start looking at as they start to explore what is next for them. But we certainly work quite a bit on the different options that are right for them. This isn't a cookie cutter program. I am certainly looking at each person and what their unique challenges are and their logistics for what's going to help them feel comfortable but still stretching outside of that comfort zone, to grow and to be the type of person and have the kind of impact that they want to be having.

Christina Kohl:

Yeah, you mentioned assessments and you also mentioned strengths. So I'm curious. I think probably StrengthsFinders is one that you would tap into, but if you can kind of speak just at a high level of the different types of assessments that you like to work with and that seem to be helpful for people.

Jackie Brown:

Absolutely, thank you. So StrengthsFinder is certainly one that I have really seen have a lot of impact and have a lot of flexibility across a variety of industries and careers and roles. So I do recommend the StrengthsFinder. And then there is one called the VIA Institute. They call it a character assessment, a values assessment, but they also talk about strengths. I see that assessment being more helpful for figuring out values, but it's a free one and it's absolutely amazing.

Jackie Brown:

It was started by Marty Siegelman, who is a big researcher in positive psychology, is a big researcher in positive psychology, and it's a personal and professional development standard, and that one is a free one. That's also been very helpful. There's another one that's free that's more career related and that's called the Sparka type and that's done by Jonathan Fields, who has a great podcast about career development, especially career pivots as well. So those three are really what I talk to people about when they're just starting to dip their toes into this space and then if they want to have more information before we even start working together. Those are the three assessments that I suggest people check out.

Christina Kohl:

Okay, great, and I'll get links for those and we'll put them in the show notes. Okay, right, jackie, this has been great. I love hearing about your process and finding joy and trying things on and the values and all of the things. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing everything, your wisdom, with the audience, and if people want to follow you and learn more from you, how can they reach you?

Jackie Brown:

Well. Thank you, christina. This has been a privilege to be on your show and to have this fascinating conversation as we talk about the difference and how we help our clients, from big picture to tactical. So thank you for the conversation and the opportunity. I would love for people to connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm very active there. I post, you know, three to five times a week, depending on how things are going. For LinkedIn, you can type in Jackie Brown coach in the search bar and that should get you to my profile and then, certainly, my website. Shiftingsuccesscom is a great way to learn more about my process. Sign up for my newsletter I send out every other week, christina. I would also love to share a free gift with your listeners and it's called Work on Purpose and it's a series of prompts journal prompts, if you'd like to help people really take a look at their own strengths, their values and how they like to interact with other people, and that helps them set up a purpose for this stage of their career, and that can be found on my website.

Christina Kohl:

All right, perfect. Thank you, Jackie, Appreciate you sharing that with the community and thank you so much for being here with me today and again sharing your wisdom. We really appreciate you. Thank you, Christina.

Jackie Brown:

I've really enjoyed it.

Christina Kohl:

All right, everyone. Thanks for listening in, and that's it for this week's episodes. We will talk to you next time. Thank you so much for listening today. I hope this episode hit home for you and, if you haven't already, be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn and say hello so I can personally thank you for listening. Until next time, remember your story is uniquely your own, and your next chapters are ready to begin.